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Talk:Riven/@comment-33536623-20140127122040/@comment-9008617-20140130230401
"Man, it's almost like you enjoy not being nice, but let's just forget about this, now back on topic." - Mege Says the troll who derailed the last thread and got it removed and who continues doing the same thing even now... "Why are we not taking Garen's passive into account? Riven health regen is very low, and Garen wins trades by simply regenerating hp after them." - Mege Because the hp regen passive is situational. During a trade, Riven's passive is active and Garen's passive is down. At level 1, Riven's combo does ~120 dmg more than Garen's spin. Garen (w/ Doran's shield) will regen 11.5 hp/5 faster than Riven's base regen (however this is not including the hp regen from Riven's doran's blade if she starts doran's). This means Garen needs more than 50 seconds to recoup the difference in damage traded. If Garen is left alone for 9 seconds then he'll start to recoup an extra 26 hp/sec. Whether or not Garen is left alone to activate his passive is also situational. "Garen's also hard to counterbuild since his ulti damage is magical while Riven, on the other hand, deals exclusively physical damage with her kit." - Mege I already addressed this 2 days ago: "Garen's ult is single target execute albeit magic damage and Riven's ult is a long-range, wide, AoE execute that scales on bonus AD." - Myself I don't know about you but typically I'm more afraid of a Riven with her ult active than I am of a Garen. Besides being an AoE execute, Riven's ult also acts as a range and AD steroid for 15 seconds with a CD as low as 30 seconds at max rank. Garen's is simply an execute that has no scalings except for the target's missing health. "In this matchup Riven needs to build armor penetration and life steal if she wants to trade efficiently (and AD, obviously) while Garen can just grab some high armor/hp item and be good with it (while still dealing considerate damage). The defensive mastery tree being so prominant furtherly push towards this kind of lane situation." - Mege Well that's good a thing since just about every Riven build incorporates a LW or BC (or both) or ghostblade... If Garen just runs "high armor/hp items" he's not going to be doing considerable damage. The base scalings on his spin2win is 120 dmg/sec at max rank. The base armor for most champions seems to be around 75 by lvl 18. This means that a Garen who runs "high armor/hp items" will do approximately 70 dmg/sec for a whopping 210'ish damage after armor and the full 3 seconds of spinning. You reeeally shouldn't be trying to compare the damage potential between a tanky Garen to an AD fighter like Riven. "Garen's Q also has a shorter CD than Riven's Q." - Mege Okay? Just because they use the same key (Q) to input something doesn't mean that they should be compared... "Garen's E also has a starting CD of 13 seconds, the same as Riven's Q, which decreases to 9 by level 5 (Riven's Q stays 13 at all levels though)." - Mege Except a good Riven will typically start with CDR masteries and/or runes and then further build CDR items whereas Garen will not. Max CDR Riven will have a Q CD of 7.8 seconds < Garen's E's 9 sec CD. "Riven's E is also on a higher CD until it gets 3 points." - Mege Higher CD than what..? Garen's Q? Yes, Garen's Q has an 8 second CD initially.. but why is everything being compared to that exactly? Convenient that you left out Garen's W's huge CD of 24 seconds... "All in all Riven has greater vulnerability windows. Garen can play slightly aggressive and force her to miss out on farm." - Mege What vulnerability windows are you referring to? Garen's E has approximately the same starting Riven's Q. We already established that Riven can frankly outdamage Garen in straight out trades early on which is why you've been trying to fall back on Garen's passive for hp regen to "win lane"... "If Riven decides to fight back and somewhat manages to bait Garen's Q hence getting a clear greater damage output Garen can just, as said above, regen that health while Riven doesn't. After a couple of trades like this Riven gets in a dangerous zone for Garen's ult." - Mege Riven doesn't even need to bait the Q since her damage is superior early on and only scales better... The silence got nerfed. It use to last ridiculously long (longer than even Fiddle's fear at max rank) at level one. "You also argued about Garen's scaling worse than Riven into lategame, and this is true. However, this post was about Riven's counter, and considering lategame scenarios, where it's just teamfights, it's silly in the counters regard." - Mege Well then we should define what we're countering here (i.e. when does early game stop, countering farm/roaming/etc?). It might help if you post actual numbers because I've already done the math for Garen from level 1 to 5. If you want to factor in first buys (i.e. armor vs ad items) then please do so. "I have played this matchup a lot of time (though admittidley I haven't used Garen much) and in my experience if the Garen is competent he does definitley win the lane (Garen's skillfloor is also lower than Riven)." - Mege Anecdotal evidence........................................................................ Ugh. It's like on one reads. We don't know if you're good with Riven, if your opponents were good with Garen, etc etc Low skillfloor just means that the champ is easier to learn and doesn't reflect their maximum potential. Besides, Riven has so much mobility and OPness (as discussed in other threads) that I would hardly consider her skillfloor to be that much higher. Riven may have a higher skill ceiling but also much more rewarding for achieving it. "If you really want some number, so that I don't sound like I'm just imagining things, according to lolking statistics Garen has a greater winrate than Riven in the matchup at all elos, monthly, weekly, and daily." - Mege And? I'm unfamiliar with these winrates. Do they reflect Garen vs. Riven matchups specifically? If so could you please link? Riven is also taken as a mid lane pick. But what exactly do winrates have to do with Riven's mechanics vs Garen's mechanics? All it implies is that Riven was on X% of winning teams and Garen was on Y% of winning teams... If you're going to provide me numbers, please provide something that's actually useful. tldr; Honestly, you really didn't add anything to the conversation. Besides taking another shot at me, you really just compared CDs in which you ignored the fact that most good Rivens will run CDR (I've already brought up before), brought up Garen's ult being magic damage (I've already brought up 2 days before in this same thread), and more anecdotal evidence... yay.